How to Avoid DM Burnout Continued

Hello, and welcome to how to be a better. M. I'm Tanner Wayland and I have my wonderful friend and compatriot

Justin Lewis here with me. Hey, Justin.

Either as a gong, Tanner,

Oh, it's going so well, beautiful morning. Excited to talk with

Yeah,

you about how to be better. D. M, M. honestly, I'm excited for today's kind of topic. We actually addressed

it a little bit like half a month ago or so. about being excited as a D. M. The topic today is a little bit

more specie, Though it's about burn out. I think we've all been there right like you're. You set up a time with

some friends regularly, like weekly or by weekly, or who knows what, Right and then you're just planning week after

week and then you suddenly realize Wait, It's not fun anymore. And not only is it enough fun, I'm dreading

it each time. right. Classic symptoms for being burned out. And so that's what we're gonna talk about is how

to deal with that first of Justin. Have you ever felt burned Out on anything or deming

Ah, yeah, yeah. I mean running a podcast. I mean, I felt burnt out a few times with doing this podcast and then my

previous podcast, Um, running sessions as a d. M. Also the same thing. There is also the same thing. It's interesting

because you know this episode is kind of the second or the first half of a two part episode where we talk about dem

boredom and how they're both kind of two sides of the same coin for losing excitement as a d. M, and in kind of comparing,

burn out to, you know, burn out with running a podcast or burn out with work. You know, I think part of it is Ou, have

this certain expectation and you go a prolonged period of time without reaching that expectation. You know.

M. Yeah, it's like it's like you're expecting some type of return essentially, but

M.

your output is so much that you're like. Well, I'm not getting that return and I only did this

Yeah,

output of effort with the idea that I had get that kind of return of enjoyment or fun or having a good time

or

Hm,

whatever, right. Um, and I think that that's that's a real issue. You know, when you're doing a lot and you're

not getting enough in return, and that I think that you know deming is actually so ripe is maybe the wrong word.

but it's so prone to this because of the amount of effort takes. T put in because it's like. I mean, this whole

podcast is based on the idea that like hey, if you want to do more than you can and you'll have a better

ou know deming experience or do differently, At least right, and some people take that as being like, Oh,

I've got to put in more and more effort and then you know, and then before I know at, they're burned out,

right M.

Yeah,

And so that's why we got to talk about some tips. I think that if you're feeling burned out, then the first

kind of category of help that you need is first. just get help from others you know. Um, like for example, taking

a small break. You know we're gonna talk about later, but taking a full break is always an option, but at the

very least you could take a small break and be like Hey, Jimmy, you're in my group. I bet you've always wanted

to do. and even if you haven't, could you please Dan, for like, small little side adventure for a few sessions,

you know, like a month or two or something. And guess what I think most people would be willing to help you

out with that. They just need a little bit of time to prepare, and then you can have that break that you've

kind of been looking for, you know.

Yeah, actually, that tip. you just spark something inside of me. That tip is, I think possibly a really good tip as well

for player management. Maybe so.

Yeah,

if you have players who maybe are a little bit rambunctious. Um, and I think it might be best for me to explain my situation,

so I have seven players at the table

That's a lot.

recently. Yeah, it is a lot Recently. I've noticed this friend of I'm working with these people who are kind of right

in front of me, because our table is really long, right and

Hm,

I sit on one side, so I'm working with people on one side of me and then people in the back. They're kind of having

their own conversation and it goes pretty off the rails gets loud and stuff.

Yeah,

Um, so add that to the fact that we just got into water deep like they just reached water deep. This is the first time

in the in

Hm,

the campaign that they're In a big city. So what you just spark this idea in me is? I'm actually going to say Hey,

guys, we are in a big city now, and just like happens in a lot of T V shows. You know, I'm thinking about Avatar. Big

cities often

Yep,

have like side quests or many episodes or things like that. Right.

Exactly

So I think what I'm going to do is I'm going to ask each of them and I'm gonna say Hey, What? Each of you prepare

a session or like a side quest inside the city right? It doesn't have to be. In fact. I'd probably prefer not to touch

on the main campaign, but just some sort of side quest that everyone can participate in and have fun, and you know stuff

like that, so I think that particular tip asking the players to sub in, I think that is really valuable for many many

reasons.

Yeah. absolutely. that's That's kind of the gold of the matter and I found this out in a lot of my life and

it's not only true for burn out, but if you're having issues asking for help, it's a huge thing. like my wife

did really well with asking her professors for help in college. That's something I didn't do

Hm,

as well, and I think she really benefited in ways that I could have you know, and it's true

Yeah,

for deming to, because it's like Hey, if you're feeling burned out or if you're feeling like Hey, we need to

shake things, Asking others to sit in the D M chair for a bit. That's that's great, and even if you like,

are teaching them a bit about deming. You know, with all the tips you've gotten from our podcast and

Yeah,

everything else, then, then teaching someone else is always a good way to kind of fresh, freshen up your own

approach to. you know,

Yeah,

Um

yeah, I'd also add

and please,

just real quick. you know, you don't have to wait till you're feeling burnt out to ask for help. In fact, it's probably

better to ask before these symptoms set in, so that way you can kind of maintain your energy. Calm down. take a break.

Allow someone else to step in, or you know, share your excitement with them and allow them to kind of reflect it back

on you. kind of this positive loop. So if you're starting to feel like the very beginnings of d n burn out, that's when

you need to ask for help rather than when you're pulling your hair out and you don't want to play d n d anymore.

Exactly that's I think that's super important because if we you know, I like to turn, burn out. the term burn

out because it kind of in my mind it makes me think of like a car or a machine that like is just being run

and run and run, and like, pedal to the metal for so long and it's not being service, is not taking a break.

It's not doing any of these things that will make it so that it doesn't burn out. And then, even if it does,

and then once it starts like smelling Of smoke. If you bring it in then it's like Well, you're looking for much

longer repair time, you know, so it's just better to you know, Take these breaks change things up. Get help a long

the way, and then hopefully you'll never actually need you know to take a really big break. right,

Yeah,

Um,

that's an excellent analogy.

Yeah, and in terms of getting help, I think you can also get help from other dims on the Internet right,

like if you're if you're writing your own content a lot, or if you're doing a huge campaign, The kind of that gives

you a lot of info. But you kind of need to direct. You need to know everything, direct the every little thing and

set up events. Then that might be kind of frustrating or or not of frustrating. but just more like a bigger load for

you. And so I wil Really recommend you now looking online, like on on the D, Ms. Guild or elsewhere, for like, little

one shots or multi session campaigns, Kind of like what you're talking about with your players, but like

Hm,

looking on line like if you still want a dam and none of your players, you know they've already played. You

know dem themselves. You can always look online for for content that other people have written very well, very

concisely, so that you don't need to, you know, pull your hair out when When running a session, you know,

Yeah, and there's nothing wrong with unless, unless you're doing a paid game, there's nothing wrong with stealing

I P from movies, T vs and T V shows and books. Like you know, if you can't think of what to do, then have your players

enter a town called Growspicely, where they may. they meet a young farm boy named Buke who has these special abilities

and he needs to join the Uhbrosmillian, You know, Like Whatever it is like,

Yeah, yeah,

your players are gonna laugh because they're goin t be like. Oh, that's the. that's the thing from that one thing,

and

Yes,

they are just going to enjoy it and you'll save yourself some time.

Exactly, you know. There's there's no problem when you're just having a friend's game, and it's supposed to

be first and foremost, fun. and any trick that you have to make your time easier. That's worth it right.

Yeah, and I would

Yeah,

even say it might even be cool to have them see like Oh, Harry Potter is going to fight Smeagle for some reason. like,

Who knows? I don't know. you know.

Exactly. you know. I know you are all creative people, but you're also people who sometimes need a change up.

and

Hm.

and that will help you avoid burn out also, if you're ever like. Because a big part of this tip is you know,

taking some load off yourself. I think that when I prepare sessions, there are certain issues either with

my players or with the campaign itself Where I'm like, I want to make this good, but I don't know how. And

so I spend forever Doing and stowing, And then only sometimes does it come out to be a really good answer. The

other times it's just an okay answer. And then I still am thinking about it all the time. If you, if you have

certain online communities, like, read it, or some other places where you can ask for advice. Having a third

party, You know, perspective, and outside our view point. A lot of times they can provide great advice for

an issue that you thought was super hard. but then they, with their experienc, They're like, Oh yeah, just

do this and then that's help as well, right,

Yeah, I actually have two examples of this. So one? I don't know if you remember Tanner, but I was preparing my one

shot, escaped from Hum Grit prison And it's

Yes,

it's kind of this like prison escaped one shot, you know, and I was struggling with it because I was like. Yeah,

Does this make sense? You know, When I sent it to Tanner, he asked one question. I don't remember what it was, but like

simplified the process and stream lined the whole story line. It. It was extremely helpful because I think My issue was

I was like, Okay, I'm going to have the players come in the prison and then like they have to like, kind of get a

sense for how things work in the prison, and then something external happens that allows them to have this opportunity to

escape And I think the question you post was like something along the lines of Why do they need to like know about the prison?

You know like, and I was like, Oh, my gosh, it just took this whole chunk out that I didn't need, and in doing the

one shot, you know lately it's made A lot better, and my second example is actually just like yesterday. In the last

few days, a buddy mind, he has been working on this home brew world, which is super super fascinating. I would share

it, but like I don't want to spoil his, because he's actually thinking about putting it up on Dem's gilt,

Oh nice.

but but like Yeah, like he's like. Yeah, Just read it like give me some pointers or whatever. Most of what I said was.

This is cool, you know, and from a d Ms. perspective, even hearing that or hearing like, Yeah, maybe tweak this. Um,

It just allows you to kind of get some of that fire back in your step and feel excited about what you're making because

we're all self conscious and we're like. Is this really good and then you send it out and someone's like, Yeah, like,

I love how this could be this and you're like I don't even think about that. That's super cool. You know.

I know it's true like I can't stress enough. that. like that Beetle song, you know, we get by with a little

help from our friends. It's very true and and I think that that's probably one of the big ways to avoid. Burn

out. another way that I'd recommend. Aside from getting help in general is simplifying right. I think that when

you kind of over complicate things sometimes then then you need moments of going back to the basic Uh, to

help you kind of get your feet back under you to appreciate why you're doing in the first place. I like, for

example, let's say that you're in the middle of a dungeon and it's just fight after fight after fight And

you personally aren't a dim. That gets. That is all that excited about fighting, you know, and and you just

haven't had a lot of that kind of creative goofiness that a lot of people look for in a campaign Which happens all

the time, like in a town setting, Right? And so what do you do then it's like Well, you can keep pushing through.

Certainly, or you know, you can go back to the basic. You can find a way within the dungeon, or you know, Have

the players do like a side dream, You know, series of sessions or who knows what? Right just to get back

to what you love, and almost like, take a break from just putting the pedal to the metal on something that kind

of drains you week after week. you know.

Yeah, I completely agree and you know it doesn't even need to be like a side dream. I think flashbacks

Hm.

are severely under used in the D n D world, especially because in most cases a lot of adventurers have been together

for a long time, and I don't know. Um, and there's nothing wrong with playing out parts of one of your players back stories.

Um, Excuse me, I also like the idea of changing up sessions. so like

Yeah,

shortening them, Maybe making them longer. Maybe you know, Uh, putting them in different places, putting them online

if you do in person or vice versa. You know, just kind of changing it up and seeing if that can make your process a

little bit easier. you know,

Yeah, I think flexibility is a huge part of this. Right. If you're feeling burned out, then being like, Hey,

what can we change That we haven't changed, you know, just to change it up for a bit, because you know, like

they say, variety is the spice of life and so adding so variety to your sessions. that's huge. Like. like,

for personal example, I was running a campaign with some family members of mine and and my wife was very. She

was concerned to how long the sessions were taking, because they take like three hours. you know, um, like

three or four hours, And that kind of just got to me mentally because I was like. I don't like that. She's so

frustrated by that And so, while I was initially kind of hesitant, I was like Hey guys, can we keep this to an

hour and a half to two hours? You know each time and people were like, Yeah, that's fine and I was like,

Oh, that's great. And then like that switch actually made it a lot better because I knew They like. She's

totally fine with me spending like a couple hours on this. That's that's absolutely okay. And then that mental

kind of burden was off me. Um, whereas other people, maybe you've been doing a bunch of short sessions and

you constantly feel like you're just missing a little something. Maybe once a month,

Hm.

you have that longer session like you're talking about. You know.

You know, I also think with simplifying one thing that trips me up is the pacing of the story and I was trying to figure

out how to really phrase this, but in my games I'm always and maybe it's because I'm too much of a planner. but I'm always

trying to figure out how to make sure what I have prepared lasts the full session. And this goes. This goes back to what

you were saying about shortening sessions. Possibly, Um, but in having that thought of, I need to make sure I make

it interesting for the full four hours. Or what? not? That thought can be fairly damaging, because you might either

speed certain things up that shouldn't be sped up,

Yep,

or you might slow things down. I'm thinking about combat, particularly that if they get slow down, it's going to make everything

way more boring.

Yeah,

So I think with pacing you kind of like I'm not a horse rider, but the only way I can describe it is when you have horse

reins in your hand and again, I'm not a horse rider. You're not supposed to hold them super tightly, but you're not

supposed to let them be super loose. Otherwise the horse is going to go wherever it wants, so you hold them in kind of

this middle area, So that way when you need to add correction, the correction is slight, but Abrupt and then quick, so that

way you know corrects the course, just like driving. you don't you don't drive? correcting like this like moving your

hands like forty five degree. Is you do like one to two degrees? So I think with simplification, maybe let go of

the reins a little bit. Let the

Hm,

story do what it wants to do, and just kind of be along for the ride, adding your little tweaks here and there to make

sure it It is on an interesting path. right,

Yeah, exactly, have a place that you're trying to head towards and have certain things that you want to happen.

But let the journey to those things be pretty flexible. I love that. I think it's very important because like

the moment that you feel like your entire campaigns on rails, then you know for a fact that the players are going

to going to dislike it, and half of the energy and the H, and kind of the refreshment that we get out of a campaign

is the players showing that appreciate Ation, And so, if you just are constantly trying to push for your own

agenda, instead of kind of letting it flow naturally, you're going to miss out on that and finally, just to end up

to end this topic. I would say the last tip is take a break. Um, I think you know what Justin said about.

Hey, take a break before you feel burned out or get help before you feel burned out. That's absolutely True.

Um, but you know if you start to smell that smoke, so to speak, there is a chance that if you just keep pushing

through, then you're gonna just burn yourself out so much that you never want to play again, which would suck

because you put a lot of time into this. It's something that you really enjoy. It's honestly, it's probably

one of the more collaborative kind of fun experiences that people have with their friends, right, D, N D is a very

unique kind of game situation. And so it's better to actually just be like. Hey, you know what I think? I'm done

for a second. Anybody else? want to be a damn? Just you know, for a while, you know more than just a few sessions.

And then that would help you kind of get, Prevent yourself from at least burning out all the way, right.

Yeah, the term forever d, M does not have to be a prison sentence like you can use that, but that doesn't mean you can

never be a player. and excuse me, you know, recently in my campaign we've had like two or three weeks where we couldn't

play just because schedules couldn't line up. That's okay, too. I know that some frustration might be because of schedules

not lining up or not getting sessions in When you want to again. That kind of goes back to being a little Lucy, goosey

and rolling with the flow or flowing with the world. whatever the term is,

M. hm,

The second thing I just like to add is baring, Barring you being a professional dungeon master. Like, unless this is

your profession, you rely on being a dungeon master to pay the bills. This is just a hobby right. this is just something

you do for fun on the side and other things will naturally take priority. I think the concept of a balanced life can only

really exist in aggregate. You can't look at one particular month and say Oh, I have a balanced life Because If you think

about it, we, we sleep eight hours a day theoretically, and we work eight hours a day Theoretically, So like that's not

super balanced. Considering you have to eat. Do all your social responsibilities have fun? You know, Maybe work on

improving yourself in the other eight hours. That's not super balanced. And also, if you think about it, you know

when you go to college like my brother went to med school During the time when he was in med school, his life was hundred

percent unbalanced. Right and only now Is he kind of regaining some of that balance and picking up other parts of

his life. So like Tanner said, If you do need to step away from D and d or being a D. M, that's totally fine and I

would add to that and I know this is kind of sacrilege being on the How to be a better D M podcast. But if you need

to step away from Dungeons and Dragons itself and pick up other games, go ahead like I am a big fan of Star Wars Fantasy

Flight Role Playing games.

Hm.

You know, I wish there was kind of a blanket term for it, but you know Age of

It's Age

Gosh.

of Empire,

What is

Edge of the

Age

Empire,

of Empires? Thank you.

Sorry, not

Yeah,

Age of Empire. that's a game.

uh,

Edge of the

Age

Empire,

of Empires, but if you want to play Age of Empires, that's an excellent game.

Also,

too

great game.

highly exactly exactly. But, but, but you see what I mean like, there's so many options out there. I'm not saying

you should stay away from Dandy forever, But if you need to go like, like going to a new country, do that and I have

fun, please come back because this is a podcast about being a dungeon master, so we want you to listen to us, but also

Dan dis way better than every game depending on how you play. But uh, the final thing I just want to say is D, and

should not be the highest priority in your life. Like naturally, family, Naturally, other things come first. So if

there is unbalanced in that area may be lean towards other areas than d n D. If you need to right

Yeah, I totally agree. taking a break. You know, it could be from gaming. It could be from the type of game that

you're so used to. whatever it is. Take that break before it gets too far and that's going to wrap up our

topic for today, Justin. thank you. you've been so helpful with just discussing this topic.

My pleasure, thank you.

Of course. of course, so for all of you out there, you know we care about you. we care about your mental

relational, emotional health, and we hope that you're taking care of that and getting the help that you need.

And you know we're going to cover this topic, probably in some way or another in the future, but get out there.

Take a break if necessary, and until next time, let's roll initiative.