Online D&D Sessions and The Future of D&D and Generative AI: Andrew Clayton from Foundry VTT

Welcome back to How to be a Better DM, the

official podcast of Monsters.Rent.

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I'm your host today, Justin Lewis.

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Today we are going to talk about how to

weave better stories for yourself and your

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players playing Dungeons and Dragons.

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And today we are probably going to be

talking about doing that online, because

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today I have a very special guest.

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I'm joined by Andrew Clayton of the

Foundry VTT team.

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So how's it going, Andrew?

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doing great.

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Thank you so much, Justin.

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I really appreciate the invitation to join

the show.

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And I'm looking forward to chatting with

you and your community about a topic that

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I care a lot about.

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Excellent.

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Uh, let's, let's dive right in.

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Um, first let's give the listener, if

they're not familiar with Foundry or, uh,

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VTTs in general, or you yourself, Andrew

Clayton, um, you know, give the listener

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just a brief background of all of those

things, uh, as far as you see fit.

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Sure, happy to do that.

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So Foundry Virtual Tabletop is a software

for playing games like D&D, including D&D,

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but many games as well, online in a

self-hosted virtual tabletop environment

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where we have a pretty unique business

model.

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It's a one-time purchase with a perpetual

license.

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So you as the game master can purchase the

software, and then you own it.

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forever and you get all of the updates we

release to the software.

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Your players don't have to purchase the

software.

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You just connect via a web browser.

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So it's all web-based.

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It's built using modern web technologies.

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And one of our proudest and strongest

attributes is our very developer-friendly

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API that allows for the development of

modules and systems that augment.

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the software.

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And that's what allows Foundry to have so

many different game systems supported,

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like over 250 different game systems that

you can play on Foundry and over 2,500

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different modules that you can install

that expand or augment or enhance the

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functionality of the software in some way

or another.

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And so we're a tool that's really designed

to allow GMs to tell powerful and

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immersive and memorable

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stories with a really high level of

production value using a lot of great

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tooling that lets you deliver experiences

that really bring your player into the

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action and really help enhance their

imagination or comprehension of a scene

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that you're, that you're depicting.

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And, yeah, and we love building the

software.

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I am the original creator of the software.

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But now there's a whole team of us

involved in making Foundry VTT.

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And we've got all kinds of projects that

were involved in, in addition to making

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the core software with regards to content

partnerships with amazing publishers like

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Paizo, we're just releasing Kingmaker for

Foundry VTT right now for Pathfinder 2E.

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We've got some other really big projects

that are ongoing or underway or coming out

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soon.

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We've got a brand new version of the

software that we're working on creating.

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So we're very, very busy and yeah, you

know, we're up to a whole lot, but

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Um, if you're not familiar with Foundry,

the best place to start is at our website,

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which is foundryvtt.com.

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And on the homepage, there's a nice sort

of, uh, introductory video that gives you

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like a, uh, an introductory tour to, to

everything that Foundry has to offer.

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And, uh, that's probably a great place to

start if you're not already familiar, but

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I hope it's something that many of you

already use or know about or are thinking

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about and, and for those of you who

aren't,

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familiar with it yet.

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I hope you discover it to be something

that is a godsend to you that can really

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help you and your groups if you find

yourself playing online.

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Or in person.

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It can be good for that too.

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Yeah, actually, it is a great software if

you use Battlemaps, but you use like TV

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screens or things like that as the

Battlemaps.

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That's a great way to pair it in person.

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Our listener can range from, you know,

never been a DM and they're preparing to

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be a DM to people who have reached out to

me saying, yeah, they played, you know,

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first edition D&D and they've kind of been

doing it this whole time.

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So I'm curious and I'm sure they're

curious too.

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What sparked the idea for Foundry and what

made you actually decide to make it happen

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because that's a very long road in between

those two instances.

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Yeah, so I guess most of my life I've been

really involved in gaming, both tabletop

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computer gaming.

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I think that's an important background

that leads me a little bit to the software

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side of things.

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And I've always had sort of tech hobby

projects going on, something or other.

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And so it was several years ago in...

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between projects and the gaming group I

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was playing with, we were thinking about

starting a new campaign and we had

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historically been playing on using some

other online tools because we played

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remotely, we played online and you know,

we'd had a good but not great experience

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with other products and you know, there

were a lot of things that kind of I as the

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DM of that

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group really wished, like, oh, I wish I

could do this, or, oh, it would be so cool

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if I could do this, or wouldn't it be

awesome if, like, when we were exploring

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these maps, I could do this other thing?

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And all of those ideas just kind of built

up to a point where I was like, well,

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maybe I'll try putting something together.

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And it was a sort of good moment of

opportunity where web technologies were at

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a place of some

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maturity, some, some technologies had

reached a place where they were really

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good choices to work with.

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So, you know, modern HTML, canvas, web GL,

um, new, you know, new JavaScript

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features, web sockets, uh, you know, I, I

won't get into the, the gory technical

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details aside from to say like a lot of

the building blocks to make a good VTT

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were available to, you know, to work with.

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And it was sort of a matter of thinking

about what would

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be a good way to formulate the software

and my ideas in a way that could take

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advantage of those technologies and really

harness their potential.

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And so Foundry was born pretty quickly

after that because it turned out that it

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actually was really working to put these

ideas into practice and start putting

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something together.

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And before long, there was kind of a

viable prototype.

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And then I faced some very serious...

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decisions about like how seriously do I

want to pursue this because not only, you

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know, was it something that was looking

very promising for me and what I wanted,

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but it turns out that as I was sharing it

around, you know, a little friend group

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and, you know, everyone's response to it

was very positive.

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And so I had to decide like, well, you

know, maybe I should see how many people

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are interested in this.

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So I started a Patreon membership where I

could share details about the project.

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you know, people started following along

and staying tuned and being interested and

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really engaged with what I was doing.

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And, uh, and everything really grew from

there.

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And I think, um, you know, as, as terrible

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for a lot of people, um, you know, the

timing kind of did, I guess, work out a

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little bit for, for this project, at least

that, you know, there I was kind of

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a year and a half, two years into

development of this new thing and suddenly

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everyone's kind of thinking, oh, maybe we

need to start playing online now.

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And so that kind of helped to really grow

the community around Foundry and bring a

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lot of people to the community.

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And yeah, the rest is history, I guess, as

they say, the launch of the product went

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well and so I started growing the team and

now there's, there's nine of us that,

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that developed the core Foundry software

and then probably another nine or 10

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beyond that are working on various content

related projects.

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So it's been a whirlwind couple of years

going from just this being an idea for my

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own group to a business with employees and

full-time everyone.

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And yeah, it's been a big change in my

life and a really exciting one.

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And I'm really thankful that I...

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you know, got a little bit lucky, you

know, sort of right place, right idea,

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right time, but also had the, you know,

the courage to kind of go after it and see

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what I could do.

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I'll tell you, so I used to do, this isn't

my first podcast.

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It's not even my second.

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Um, my first podcast was a personal

development podcast and I, we often talked

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about business and I'll tell you hearing

your story a little bit, definitely.

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I have the edge to kind of dig into that,

but we might have to do that off screen

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or, or something.

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We all know that, uh, the world was

basically waiting at home for

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thumbs.

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And so we all, you know, played online

D&D.

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But now why should someone consider online

D&D and or, sorry, not and or, but, you

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know, add it to the list of things that

they should do instead of just doing

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in-person.

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Does that make sense?

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Mm-hmm, it does.

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I mean, I think I'd start by saying, if

you have an in-person group that you love

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and that meets regularly and that you have

a great relationship with the people at

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the table, cherish that, do not let it go.

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You have something special and be thankful

for that.

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That doesn't mean you can't play online or

you.

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can't also play online with other friends

or another group or anything else, but I

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would be wrong to sort of disavow the

magic of the in-person experience.

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But the reality is that's not practical

for everyone.

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And there's so many more reasons why

playing in person doesn't work out than

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reasons why it does.

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The timing doesn't work or the location

doesn't work or.

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You don't actually like the people that

much or you're not really vibing and

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you're not wanting to tell the same sort

of stories.

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And it turns out that there's people

online that do wanna tell the same sort of

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stories that you do, that you do have a

great relationship with where your

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schedule does match up with.

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And the only thing that doesn't match is

you just don't happen to live in the same

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town.

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And so, I think the thing to ask yourself

is...

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how important is the location bit versus

all of the other things that go into

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having an amazing role-playing experience?

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And sometimes the stars line up and

everything works out that in-person group

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is, that's the dream, I think.

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But there's lots of great reasons to look

online, to find the right kind of game for

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you, the right game system for you, the

right time to play, the right at-table

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expectations or tone or storytelling.

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And those are things that are a lot easier

to find when you have the whole universe

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of TTRPG players to, you know, to connect

with and to draw from, then, then just who

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happens to live down the street.

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So, um, yeah, I mean, I guess that's kind

of part of the way I think about it, but,

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you know, I would also say that for groups

that maybe have the choice, like we could

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do either, or, you know, um, I think that

the experience of playing online is a

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little bit different.

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It leans into some things a little bit

more heavily and it

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maybe shies away from some things a little

bit more heavily.

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And so I do think it is subtly, but

importantly, a little bit of a different

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game experience.

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And I think that that's something that

suits people very well.

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It's also something that can cause

frustration to people and maybe just like

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that mode of play isn't for you.

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And so if you've tried it, you probably

know which camp you're in.

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And if you haven't, then, you know, I

think it's interesting to discover like,

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what the differences are and what you like

about it and what you don't.

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And of course, the quality of your

experience will depend a lot on the

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people, the platform, the story.

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So, you know, it's hard to judge anything

like this is for me or this isn't for me,

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but it's nuanced in a lot of ways.

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I couldn't agree more, honestly, just

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of playing D&D or tabletop games as far as

a DM, maybe not the biggest hurdle, but

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definitely the first hurdle is finding

players, first of all, getting people to

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say, yeah, I'd love to play with you.

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And I mean, logically, like you said, when

you open up your field to anyone, you're

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going

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right, who has connection to the internet.

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It makes it a lot easier to find people.

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And actually to that end, I would

recommend to the listener, you should work

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on being good at both versions of

gameplay, right, in person or online and

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work at enjoying both because if you can

do that, you will always be able to find

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players and campaigns and stuff like it's

just a better way to be rather than

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limiting yourself to one or the other.

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in my personal opinion.

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So you did mention there are nuances to

both online and in person.

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And I actually wanted to talk about that,

dig in a little bit.

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So what would you say are some of the

challenges that you might have to overcome

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when doing online play?

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And what are some really cool things that

you can do online that you can't do or

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maybe would be really awkward or weird to

do in person?

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you're probably gonna have to cut me off

at some point because I bet I could talk

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about this for hours.

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I think about this a lot because it really

informs in a large sense, like what is it

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that we're trying to build?

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What is our product and who is it for and

why?

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Because it's very difficult to do

everything and.

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You know, if you try and be everything for

everybody, you probably aren't going to

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really succeed at, you know, at whatever

your main focus is or your core mission

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is.

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So, in the interest of time, I guess my

answer will be from the perspective of

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Foundry Virtual Tabletop.

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But I will say that like, that answer is

not the universal answer for playing

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online.

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That's just my answer with respect to the

software that we make.

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Um, I think that playing online is really

fascinating because it changes a lot of

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the expectations for the game master in

an, in a, in a meaningful way in terms of

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expectations around preparation,

expectations around capacity to improvise

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expectations around what happens when the

players go off script.

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Um,

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I think that one of the things about

playing online, especially in Foundry, is

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it's such a fantastic platform for visual,

auditory, immersive storytelling.

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It really leans into the fact that when

you're digital, you have all of these

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amazing assets that you can draw from maps

and artwork and portraits and tokens and

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music.

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And all of these things can...

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help you tell your story in a way that is

so visually engaging and immersive.

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But part of what happens as a result of

that is that there is like a little bit of

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expectation sometimes to like prepare all

of those things.

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You know, it's one thing to say like, oh,

I have a collection of 75,000 tokens.

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It's probably about what I have.

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you know, in terms of like individual

images of like different creatures or

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characters that you can use, but the

pressure to like prepare, you know, which

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ones are we going to use or which maps are

ready to go or which pieces of artwork are

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the ones that we're using this week.

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There's, there can be kind of just more

expectation on the GM sometimes to set

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those things up and to do prep work before

the session than there is when you're just

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playing in person and like.

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everyone kind of knows you're not gonna

have those things.

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You're not gonna have the beautiful

printout map, maybe every once in a while,

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but usually no.

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You're not gonna have the perfect mini for

every creature that you encounter.

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You're not gonna have this beautiful

illustrated artwork that you put up on the

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wall for every scene that your party

explores.

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And so the expectations just shift a

little bit.

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And I think this is something that...

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some GMs really lean into because they

love the idea that like, this is my hobby

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and I'm happy to prep six hours for a four

hour session because I freaking love it.

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And I just like want that moment of those

four hours with my friends to be like just

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amazing.

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But that's not for everybody and it

doesn't have to be and it shouldn't be,

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but you know, I think like there is a.

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And I don't want anyone to get the wrong

idea about our software.

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Like there's nothing inherently about

Foundry that requires you to spend that

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amount of time preparing for a game

session.

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But it is sort of like the social contract

that exists online with so many artists

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making amazing artwork and musicians

making music and putting it all at your

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fingertips.

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It sort of is like raising the bar and

raising the stakes about...

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what's available to you and therefore like

what you might be expected to, to engage

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with or to prepare to present to your

players.

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And so it's a really interesting paradox.

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I think that like with that increased

power comes sort of increased obligation

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and like does playing online make playing

easier?

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It's complicated.

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Yes.

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Question mark.

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It does.

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It can, but it also

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doesn't, and it also can't sometimes,

because it means that you find yourself

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spending more time on some other things.

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But maybe the time that you're spending on

prep is time that you're not spending on a

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long commute to drive to wherever your

game night is or something like that.

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So there's puts and takes everywhere.

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But I do think it's really different.

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And I think that we try and lean into

allowing

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the sort of most spectacular experience

that they can.

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And so, you know, we do kind of build a

power tool like for the GM that wants to

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go that extra mile and do all of that

prep.

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Like we want to give that game master as

much capability and power as they can

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handle in the software.

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And then at the same time, we wanna think

about like, how can we make set up and how

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can we make things easier and accessible

to people that, you know, any, whether

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you're, you know.

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sort of hardcore about that or not.

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Anything we can make faster and easier and

more approachable is a win for everybody.

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But yeah, you know, it's just a really

interesting situation where like, because

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we are that kind of, I guess power tool is

a sort of fair way to think about it.

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It comes along with a lot of extra, you

know, considerations about like how you

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use it and the time that you spend with

it.

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And is that something that you

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Enjoy or is that something that comes as a

tax to you that makes you feel like

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you're, you know, you're paying more for

your gaming experience and different

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people respond different.

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Those are really interesting points you

bring up.

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And the first thing that comes to mind is

that you're absolutely right in that it is

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a power tool, right?

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Like if you are going to use a VTT, right,

you have already made the decision that

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you are going to try and go a little bit

more all out than maybe, you know, the

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average DM.

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And that's because, and I've said this on

other podcast episodes before, but at its

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core,

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a role playing game, right?

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Like the barest bearer of a role playing

game just consists of a story, people,

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something to record the story maybe, and

an agreed upon set of rules, right?

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And I know people who do, you know,

theater of the mind over the phone or on

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Zoom calls, right?

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If you're going to use a VTT, then you've

already made that decision to try and make

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it spectacular.

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right?

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And the next thought that comes to my mind

is also, we have so much content that we

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can consume in the form of, you know,

shows like Critical Role, Dimension 20,

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High Rollers from the UK, you know, things

like that, that are a little bit more

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towards that spectacular level and seeing

tools like these VTTs, we do start to

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think, you know, why can't I do that?

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So I definitely agree with everything

you're saying.

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And as far as the accessibility, that was

one thing I did want to

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So as a technological neophyte, I would

kind of think of VTTs and think, what are,

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in your opinion, what are the technical

specifications you'd have to have for your

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computer to just run a VTT fairly well

without technical issues?

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And what are some ways that you could

hopefully mitigate any technical issues

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that might pop up?

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Yeah, sure.

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Great question.

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So different VTTs are going to be

different in that regard.

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Some of them are built using a game engine

like Unreal or Unity where everyone has to

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install a piece of software.

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Some are just very lightweight web-based.

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You just pop onto a website and you go.

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Foundry is a little bit in the middle, I

would say, in terms of it's not the most

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lightweight, but it is relatively

lightweight because it's easy for the

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Game Master to install and everyone else

just joins with a web browser.

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In terms of our technical system

requirements, they're relatively modest,

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but because Foundry is a tool that really

leaves it up to the GM, how big do you go?

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The requirements for people playing do

depend on sort of what...

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the game master does.

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So for example, Foundry can do things

like, it can use big like video maps, or

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it can use map images that are extremely

large, like 16,000 pixel square.

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But that doesn't mean that everyone can do

that.

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So like on your laptop or on your

computer, you have a GPU, whether it's

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integrated or a discrete card.

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And that GPU has like a maximum size that

it can do.

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And so, you know, it really does depend a

little bit on what your GM is doing, but

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for like basic usage, you know, any, any

laptop or PC that you purchased in the

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last, you know, six or seven years is

going to work just fine with Foundry VTT,

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um, we're, we don't have a spectacularly

high bar in terms of technical

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requirements.

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One of the

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probably the biggest technical requirement

that we do have that is a struggle for

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some of our users is the nature of

networking because, we unlike some other

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platforms, we are self-hosted.

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That is a blessing, but that is also a

challenge in some ways.

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What that means is that as the DM, you're

running Foundry on your computer.

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all of the files that you're using, the

maps, the music, the tokens, it's all

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stuff that you have right on your

computer.

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You own your own files and you use your

own files and you own your own data.

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It's not like some cloud service that

like, if you stop paying for it, you lose

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it.

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Or if the website goes down, you can't run

your session because like someone else's

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website went out.

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The great thing about it being self-hosted

is

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you know, you're in control, it's your

computer and you can play as long as your

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computer is working.

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And there's something that like is

empowering about that.

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But it also means that among other things,

your players need to be able to connect to

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your computer.

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And we don't actually control your home

wireless network or your home router.

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And so, you know, we can't solve some

problems for people in terms of like...

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how your player gets connected to you.

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We have a lot of support for working

through that and troubleshooting it.

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It can be as easy as you have to do

nothing.

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It can be as difficult as you have to go

to your router and add a port forwarding

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rule.

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And that is technically daunting to

people.

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So yeah, there's pros and cons of it.

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We do have, I should be clear, we do have

a couple of really great partnered hosting

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service providers where

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If for whatever reason you don't want to

or can't navigate the technical

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requirement of hosting Foundry yourself,

you can pay a modest amount and one of our

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partners will host a server for you that

is always available for you and your

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friends to log into with zero headaches

attached.

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But yeah, these are the sorts of things

that are tough to navigate.

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And it is tough sometimes with...

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users who might not necessarily

understand, like, why can't you make it

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just work?

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And, you know, it's tough to not always

have a great answer to that.

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It's like, because the Internet is a

little bit complicated and, you know, how

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traffic gets from one place to another,

it's not as simple as you might think.

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On the heels of that somewhat technical

question, I think, you know, we're coming

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down to the end of our talk today.

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I do want to ask one question before we

sort of wrap up that is also technical,

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maybe, but what AI is sort of this

buzzword right now, you know, artificial

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intelligence, all that jazz.

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AI or generative experiences as it

pertains to VTTs.

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Yeah, great question.

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Tough question, I think.

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generative models are evolving and

improving faster than most of us are able

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to really comprehend and keep up with.

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I think the improvements in quality of

output from generative models is really

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impressive.

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Now, there are very crucially and very

importantly,

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issues at play here in terms of how those

results are produced and how we should

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feel about them.

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But setting those aside for a moment, and

that is a fairly big but, you know,

420

focusing a little bit more on the

technology itself, I think that generative

421

assets, generative content is inevitably

going to be part of

422

the landscape of role playing.

423

I think it's unavoidable.

424

I think that...

425

you know, there's a certain hallmark of

role playing experiences about, you know,

426

improvisation and collaborative

storytelling and the desire to communicate

427

ideas, creative ideas, quickly in a way

that allows everyone at the table to then,

428

you know, intake those ideas, be inspired

by them, and then respond.

429

And one of the amazing things about

generative, whether it's text or image or

430

video or even audio, the ability for it to

take an idea and then give you something

431

tangible to react to or respond to that

expands upon that idea or heightens it or

432

takes it to a next level of depth.

433

I think there's not.

434

clear answers about how this is going to

work or how it's going to affect the way

435

that people role play, but I think it's

inevitable that it will.

436

The ability for, as the DM, for you to be

in real time, live improvising and say,

437

you walk into the town and there's a

market and in front of the market, there's

438

a juggler who's juggling balls woven of

all of the different elements of magic,

439

fire and frost and...

440

electricity and thunderbolts of force

erupting out and the crowd is watching

441

with rapt attention as a little pickpocket

goes around and takes coins from

442

unsuspecting people's garments.

443

And you're just saying that, and as you're

saying it, an image is displayed of that

444

very scene.

445

Like interpreting voice into prompt and

interpreting prompt into image.

446

and interpreting image into a stimulus

that then comes back to your storytelling

447

and that people can respond to, it's

unbelievably powerful conceptually.

448

And I think it's something that will

change the way that we role play for sure.

449

Now, what's it take to get there?

450

I think, you know, there's technical

challenges to solve, like how would...

451

a technology platform, make it to where

you can have that kind of experience where

452

the GM says the thing and lo and behold,

the image of it appears and everyone's

453

like, I see it now I'm there.

454

How do you get there?

455

Well, there's technical problems to solve.

456

But you know, as I said, there's also, you

know, ethical problems to solve and you

457

know, how that artwork gets generated.

458

is a very contentious and rightfully so

topic.

459

And so I think, you know, while the

technical, the technology problem is one

460

that's very exciting to me, to others,

it's a problem that is not really

461

appropriate to try and, you know, bring to

life until I think some of the, you know,

462

the ethical concerns about.

463

sourcing of training data about generation

of results about, credit or compensation

464

or even consent of the people whose work

has been used to create these results is

465

better handled.

466

And so, we're at the cutting edge of this

stuff and it cuts in addition to being

467

exciting.

468

And so I think, I'm very excited about

where this might lead.

469

Um, but you know, I think it's going to be

a little bit of time until it becomes

470

normative, but I do think it's inevitable

that this is really going to fundamentally

471

alter the way that we play games.

472

Absolutely.

473

I definitely think the world in five, 10

years is going to look a lot more like the

474

Jetsons.

475

Maybe not so much in flying cars or Rosie

the robot, but I don't know.

476

Things are definitely changing.

477

But thank you so much, Andrew, for joining

me on this conversation and talking to my

478

listener here.

479

Before we let you go, can you tell my

listener how can they reach out to you,

480

support you, see what you're up to, and

possibly connect with you?

481

Absolutely.

482

So the best place to start is at

foundryvtt.com.

483

So if you're not familiar with our

software yet, that's the best place to go.

484

If you are familiar or you want to get

more involved, we have an official Discord

485

server, discord.gg slash foundryvtt.

486

We have an amazing community where, you

know, like-minded TCRPG enthusiasts who

487

love technology and love foundryvtt.

488

And

489

are eager to share their tips and tricks

and experiences with you, help out, are

490

able to be found.

491

It's a really wonderful community.

492

I encourage everyone to check it out.

493

We are available on socials, Twitter slash

Foundry VTT, YouTube, Foundry VTT, Twitch.

494

We have a Twitch channel.

495

We'll be live on Twitch next week with a

development.

496

update of our latest and greatest

versions, very exciting announcements and

497

first looks and things coming there.

498

And yeah, we have a Patreon as well, as I

mentioned earlier in the in the podcast,

499

this all sort of started on Patreon, we do

still have a Patreon for anyone who just

500

loves what we're doing so much that you

want to like show a little bit extra

501

support or something, you can do that

there.

502

It's it's incredibly appreciated.

503

It is not required.

504

The whole

505

business model that we operate on is a

one-time purchase.

506

You don't have to subscribe to anything.

507

It's just if you love what we're doing so

much that you want to shower us with your

508

affection, you may do so at your

discretion.

509

And yeah, the best place to interact with

me and the team is on our Discord server.

510

We're very active there, and we love

chatting with the community about what

511

we're doing.

512

So do check it out, and I hope to see you

there.

513

Excellent.

514

Well, listener, I hope you enjoyed today's

conversation and I am 100% certain that

515

you learned something today or at least

have something to chew on mentally and

516

hopefully it nourishes your body and soul.

517

We'll be back next week for another

amazing episode.

518

Until then, friend, let's go ahead and

roll initiative.